why cant i spank my cat

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  • #807444
    matt
    Participant

    Could someone please explain to me why cants cant be spanked other than its bad. It seems to me from an evolutionary stand point that any animal that doesn’t learn from negative stimuli would go extinct. For instance, if a cat doesn’t associate fire with hot then how will they know to stay out of the fire? Again im looking for serious answers not just “you are a monster because hitting cats is bad mmmm’kay”.

    #807446
    Pusheen
    Participant

    I made an account just to reply to this. Let’s imagine that you are the kind of horrid person who sees their cat peeing in “inappropriate” places and, instead of thinking that the cat has a medical condition, decides the best thing to do is beat his cat. What do you think the cat is going to associate the hitting with — the peeing or you? The answer is you.

    Cats avoid fire because touching the fire hurts. Cats will avoid what hurts — what’s hurting in this case? YOU.

    Cats cannot understand that you’re hitting them because they peed somewhere you didn’t like. They just get that you are hitting. And that makes you the enemy. And for good reason.

    #807449
    Buttons
    Moderator

    Firstly…. I just want to becareful as this topic might upset members.. I have asked KM to keep an eye on this post..

    I understand Matt that your probably asking a disciplinary question but under no circumstances should you raise your hand to any animal… (Unless your life is threatened)

    Spanking your cat only leaves a cat with a negitive association and it simply doesn’t work it’s not got anything to do with the evolution of a cat.. “Fire hot” that’s never changed over the millions of years so of course it’s an instant association..

    But if a cat of dog for that matter is spanked after an event then they dont get that instant association cause your not going to be around every single time they do something you do like..

    So please don’t spank cats/kittens as this will more thank likely make the situation Worse and actually create more behavioral issue.. If you have a cat with behavioral issues you need a lot of patience so if you don’t want to or don’t have the time to give to the cat you can rehome him..

    #807452
    Buttons
    Moderator

    Oh and let us know exactly what unwanted behavior your seeing from your cat we should be able to give you alternate options for improving this behavior it could be something as simple as a litter tray issue or a scratching issue all of these can be helped without spanking ..

    #807476
    katzenjammer
    Participant

    Thanks for giving KM the head’s up Buttons. Moderators rock! Read this post last night, it greatly troubled me yet i was for once at a loss as to how to respond. Answers above echo my advice, and one can always ask vet or vet tech or others who have had experience raising kitties. Hitting is just plain wrong. I’m for sure not the most even tempered person and when I adopted Dorry he was quite the feisty handful. I found it frustrating and on vet’s advice I had a behaviorist over (not Jackson Galaxy) to explain kitty behaviour to me and how to be aware of Dorry’s communication and non-abusive ways to manage his “moments”. It’s a learning curve and one that pet owners must be willing to take on.

    #807508
    Leeny
    Participant

    Pusheen’s answer just about sums up the reason why cats don’t learn from being struck. Another reason for not striking a cat is that the cat will, out of self-protection instincts, learn to aggress against the source of the striking. In this case, the response does generalize–that is, the cat will learn not only to aggress against the human who has struck it, but against humans in general.

    In sum, striking a cat will not produce positive behavior changes, but it will produce an aggressive cat.

    #807510
    matt
    Participant

    Sorry about the touchy subject but I honestly just want to understand the reasons why. Im still a little skeptical that they would fail to associate the behavior with the spank. I can somewhat see the point that i cant be there every time they do the bad behavior but i feel that if it only happens after the negative behavior eventually the cat would catch on.

    The problem I’m having is inappropriate peeing. The cat was unfixed for about 9 months until i finally got around to fixing him about three weeks ago. I thought this would fix the problem but he continues to pee outside his litter box. He would normally pee on my clothes or right by the door cuz other cats walk in front of our door (this one I understand). I would tell him NO and that he was a bad kitty but the problem never seemed to go away. A few days ago however he decided to pee on my bed and i just lost it so i hit him. The problem hasnt happened again but its only been a day or two so if it happens again, what would be the best way to handle it?

    A little more info: I looked up spraying but he wasn’t exactly spraying and it wasn’t on the walls. The cat simply squats and only partially empties his bladder at various places throughout the apartment. We only have this one cat and one litter box but the apartment only has two rooms. He still poops in his litter box and pees in there every now and then but the peeing is a big problem. I keep it relatively clean but the peeing persists even when the box has been freshly cleaned. I’m a first time cat owner and would greatly appreciate your help in resolving this matter peacefully. Also i believe he is a maine coone but i dont know if that makes any difference. Other than the peeing he is a great cat and i would like to learn how to fix this problem without rehoming him. Thanks

    P.S. another punishment i tried is wiping his face in the pee and then giving him a bath right after. he didn’t seem to like it but would this practice even help?

    #807512
    Buttons
    Moderator

    Huuumm… The old peeing on carpet problem :).. Well just curious how big is his litter tray? If he is a Maine coon mix than I’m assuming even at 9 months he’s probably pretty big…

    Large cats need EXTRA large litter trays ( preferable ones with NO cover). And a litter tray really needs to be cleaned several times a day…

    Next time he pees on anything other than the litter tray just check the tray straight away and see what’s in it.. Some cats ( my buttons) is SO fussy! He needs a very clean litter tray with lots of litter before he’ll comfortably use it..

    I can understand your frustration but you need to understand there is a healing period after being neutered so he’s probably still adjusting..

    And the cats outside aren’t helping… If the front door is the only issue you could maybe get a motion sensor air canister this with emit a short sharp bust of air when outdoor cats approach and eventually this will teach them not to come around so much ( or keep them from your front door at least)

    Sometimes a cat will continue to pee outside the tray because they can still smell their old urine ..
    If you can get a black light ( cheap on ebay/ amazon) and goes around your apartment you’ll fin the places he’s peed on.. Cat urine is incredibly long lasting! So you need and enzyme cleaner to successfully remove all traces of urine stains.. Doing this should reduce the risk of him peeing on familiar areas..

    #807514
    Buttons
    Moderator

    Here’s an example of enzyme cleaner on amazon

    And a cheap black light

    #807517
    Leeny
    Participant

    No, Matt, it won’t help. Your cat is engaging in territorial marking behavior, which is part of a completely different instinctual system than elimination. Although spraying is the most common form of territorial marking, the cat doesn’t have to spray to mark territory. What tipped me off to this is when you said he only partially empties his bladder at various places throughout the apartment. This is what male animals do; it’s why dogs have to stop at every tree and deposit urine when they’re out for walks.

    Your clothes and your bed have your scent on them most strongly. That’s why he chooses them for targets; he’s superimposing his scent over yours. This is also natural instinctive behavior. In the wild, animals will put their own scent on top of a place where they smell another animal’s scent. Sometimes they even establish a “community marking post,” a particular tree or something where everyone marks just to let others know they’re around.

    Having the cat neutered at 9 months used to be recommended procedure, but it no longer is. Veterinary research has found that the concerns once voiced about the male’s urinary system not developing properly if neutering took place earlier do not happen. Shelter kittens are given what is called a pediatric neuter (or spay) as soon as they attain a certain weight. I think they hit that weight around 2 or 3 months of age. If this behavior became established before the cat was neutered, I’m afraid it’s going to be difficult to stop it. Once those hormones kick in and the instinctive sex-linked behaviors start, it can take a long time for them to go away even after neutering.

    So you see, Matt, from your cat’s perspective, this isn’t a behavior problem; it’s what his instincts tell him he’s supposed to do. You can’t change that behavior through punishment of any kind. I recommend you talk with your vet about this. Make it clear that you’re dealing with territorial marking and ask for advice about that. I hope you can find an answer to this problem.

    #807525

    matt the thing you have to understand is that cats dont understand things the way humans do. they associate spanking with violence, and may come to fear you over time. your cat is trying to tell you soemthing if he’s marking. if he’s not neutered, it may be time to take him in for it. or, he may have a urinary infection. instead of punishing your cat, try to figure out why it’s going on. take him to the vet and have a checkup.

    also, take a read here –

    http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/urine-marking-cats

    #807529

    pusheen ji is correct!

    #807536
    jcat
    Participant

    Hi, Matt, well, everyone above is right. Not neutering a male cat until after he has started his instinctive territorial marking behaviour does often mean that the behaviour is already a habit. Click the pink tag ‘litterbox’ and google inappropriate urination for more information on what you can do but also talk to your vet. Sometimes a short course of medication can help (he is stressed because of the other cats) and a Feliway spray can be used to spray on the spots he has peed on (after washing with a good enzyme cleaner) as it is a pheromone that tells cats ‘we don’t spray here’ but you would have to respray it every day. A Feliway diffuser might also help to chill him out but talking to your vet is your best bet.

    Animal consciousness, memory, behaviour, instinct etc are big topics in veterinary science, like the human brain we actually know very little about animal consciousness and are learning all the time (usually that we have underestimated them). What I think we probably know is that there is instinctual behaviour (wanting to mate, looking after kittens) although that doesn’t always turn out right in every animal, there is learned behaviour (like that the microwave door opening means food might be in the offing in the kitchen) and there is behaviour taught by the mother cat and other cats, but I am no expert and the experts all argue anyway. The most important thing about animals though is that they live in the moment. If you do not catch the animal in the middle of the exact act of what they’re doing (i.e. with a burst of compressed air, a squirt of water or a rattly noise), they will not associate that with the act. So squirting a cat after he has peed is too late, he will not associate that with the peeing, and will not understand why you have done it. Also, if he sees you squirting him, he will associate the squirting with YOU and will simply wait until you’re not there before he repeats the behaviour. Hitting an animal is not only cruel, it is useless. So is pushing his face in it. You will just teach him to be afraid of you. Fear and stress will make inappropriate urination more likely, it is the instinctual response. You need to sort this problem out with your vet.
    Incidentally, evolution is incredibly wasteful. There is a high accident mortality and predation rate for all baby animals in the wild as you’ll know if you watch wildlife documentaries. They may learn not to do ‘whatever’ in future if they survive (because the act and the result happen simultaneously) but most often they will not survive.

    #807587
    Leeny
    Participant

    Matt, I just read over your longer post to make sure that you’d said the cat was neutered. Three weeks ago! My glory, it takes time for those hormones to work their way completely out of his system–just how much time, your vet could tell you better than I can, but it’s more than just a few weeks. Cutting off the source of the hormones does not immediately take away those that are already circulating in his body. This is a process that is going to take time–time for the hormones to leave the cat’s body, time for the behaviors that the hormones triggered to drop out.

    The most important question here is whether you will be able and willing to give your cat the time to adjust to his new physiology and adapt his behaviors to it. You say he is a great cat other than for this problem and you’d rather solve the problem than rehome him. Can you focus on the things that make him great while this behavior is being resolved? It seems that this issue really isn’t one of appropriate disciplinary tactics, but of your commitment to your cat and the amount of effort you’re able and willing to put forth to keep him as your companion.

    #807588
    matt
    Participant

    Jcat thanks for that explanation, that’s the answer I was looking for when I started this post but the subsequent comments have helped to teach me how to resolve the issue at hand. Leeny I believe you might be right about my level of commitment to the cat. My roommate and I got the cat when we moved into our current apartment. He is home more than me so the cat naturally gravitates toward him. Me and the cat began to drift apart and after a while I kind of came into the role of disciplinarian. If I’m reading the responses correctly, it sounds like I need to focus on determining what is causing the problem as opposed to disciplining him when manifestations of the problem occur. Does this mean that cats cant really be disciplined because bad behavior is indicative of some other problem? After watching my cat after the hit and reading your posts I am convinced that hitting the cat is not the right way to interact with him but I am still a bit confused on if discipline in general is effective on cats.

    #807591
    Buttons
    Moderator

    I’m so glad we were able to help Matt .. You’re very correct the point were making is to put your efforts into finding and correcting the problem instead of disipling physically is more effective .. As for your last question..Honestly in all my years of caring for cats none have responded or learned from physical discipline..

    #807606
    Leeny
    Participant

    Cats can be disciplined, Matt, but the trick is not to let the cat associate you with the discipline. If it does, it will just misbehave when you’re not there.

    Some people have tried, for example, putting an uncomfortable material on surfaces where they don’t want the cat to go–double-sided sticky tape or aluminum foil (cats don’t like the crinkly sound). Some have tried motion-activated devices that make noise or squirt air under pressure if the cat approaches a forbidden area. Some have tried balancing a can of pebbles or coins that will be sure to fall over if the cat jumps up on a counter or table where food is prepared or served. Squirting water on the cat’s body–being careful to avoid the face–can be effective, but it’s most effective if the cat doesn’t see you do it.

    Before I knew you weren’t supposed to let the cat associate you with a correction, I used to yell “no!” and clap my hands. I also used the squirt bottle, and with most of my particular cats, these things worked. I had one cat, though, named Katie, who did not respond to any of the typical cat-discipline techniques. I’d yell “no”; she’d develop selective feline deafness. I’d squirt her with water; she’d look around with a pleasantly curious expression on her face like she was wondering, “Where is this lovely shower coming from?” The only thing that worked with that cat was for me to hiss at her like another cat. That stopped her in her tracks every time. To hiss like a cat, you open your mouth and expel air as if you were pronouncing the letter “H”. This is one thing that mother cats do to express displeasure to their kittens, so the cat will already understand what it means.

    #807608
    matt
    Participant

    Thanks to all for the advice, I’m looking forward to putting these things into practice and thank you mods for not shutting this thread down from the beginning as I have learned a lot from this community.

    #807610
    Buttons
    Moderator

    No bother Matt… This is why this site is so great.. it’s best not to judge immediately and close a thread like this when we can help and give information and pass on our knowledge that will last a life time for you and benefit lots of cats so pass it on Matt 🙂

    #807654
    jcat
    Participant

    Plus, animals learn much better — like the rest of us — from a ‘carrot’ rather than a stick, i.e. positive reinforcement. Praising and giving treats when they are behaving in ways you want them to behave are much more effective. It may sometimes not seem like it but cats on the whole DO want to please their owners and behave in ways that will get them positive attention and lots of love. (It’s all good practice for child-rearing later on…)

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